Right here. Seeing someone with a gun is not even legal cause to stop someone in Pennsylvania, let alone draw a gun on them.
UPDATE: Listening to the whole video, and listening to the tone in the cop’s voice, I think that guy was actually close to being shot. Probably best to just keep quiet and be very compliant in that situation. The lawsuit can come later. I’m not sure whether it’s exceptionally brave, or exceptionally stupid to amp up a cop who has a gun drawn on you.
I agree that this guy was close to getting shot by the police even though he committed no crime. In all likelihood the cop would have claimed that he felt threatened and been cleared by Internal affairs after 2 weeks of paid leave.
This begs the question: are we allowed to defend ourselves against the police or are we supposed to allow them to meekly execute us on the street? I seem to recall a SC case (John Bad Elk v. U.S.) that said that a citizen has a right to defend himself against false arrest. My interpretation of this case may be wrong and perhaps someone else can clear it up for me.
Would the person in this video have been authorized to defend himself against the Philly PD based on this case? Are we getting close to that point due to all the corrupt cops in this state? How is the behavior of the Philly police any different from that of a banana republic?
Technically, self-defense is self-defense. The law doesn’t treat a cop any differently. But to say getting a self-defense acquittal against a police officer is an uphill battle is an understatement. Also, tactically, if this guy had tried to draw, he’d be dead. Even if he succeeded, the self-defense claim would be dubious, because police aren’t in the habit of shooting people they don’t have to. Maybe that’s not true in this case, but that’s what a jury is going to think.
What was the outcome on this? Case pending or what?
WOW, just wow!!
The cop called him Junior, not Buddy.
There was no Reasonable Suspicion even mentioned other than the cop not knowing him.
A holstered weapon is not a threat.
The cop, a Sargent. and many of those cops need training. I think I heard them say they called a DA and they didn’t know either.
§505(b)(1)(i):
18 Pa.C.S. § 505: Use of force in self-protection
……
(b) Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force.–
(1) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:
(i) to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, although the arrest is unlawful;
……
“(i) to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, although the arrest is unlawful;”
So, according to the law we can’t resist the police no matter how unlawful or ridiculous the charge? Isn’t this the definition of tyranny?
You can’t use force to resist an unlawful arrest. That doesn’t negate self-defense.
I’m not sure whether it’s exceptionally brave, or exceptionally stupid to amp up a cop who has a gun drawn on you.
Both?
All the moral rightness in the world ain’t gonna help you when the pallbearers are carrying you your last 50 feet.
1. I hope this guy sues the officer(s) involved, individually, for all they’re worth.
2. The state really needs to step in and make it clear to Philadelphia that they can’t make their own gun laws.
3. This guy is truly an idiot – for open carrying in Philly, for taking that tone with the cops, and for trying to get himself shot.
I listened to it and I don’t think he did anything wrong. He tried to calm down an out of control officer who was pointing a gun at him. He tried to explain the law to the cop when the cop was so far wrong that he couldn’t see the law with a telescope. The cop has had training. The MPOETC 2009 training was about Open Carry in PA, and every officer had to get that training.
Here’s the PDF from MPOETC
http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkba/archive/MPOTEC_OC_Update_2009.pdf
I’d like to see some dash cam video. Discovery at trial?
The closest I heard to something I’d consider “wrong” would be when he kept saying “I’m going to show you my license to carry”. The cop is a f#$$%ing idiot. So essentially saying “I’m going to reach around to my back pocket, right next to my gun” is just going to get the idiot even more edgy.
Seriously, clamming up wasn’t going to help in this case. That cop sounds like a freaking psychopath. I would be honestly surprised if this guy didn’t have a record of unnecessary violence on “suspects” in his path, and I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up shooting someone before his career is over.
I especially like the “shut the fuck up” when the guy said he’s not talking without an attorney if they’re arresting him. Real fucking classy city there.
“Officer, I will now place my hands on top of my head and turn around, in pocket x is my wallet. In this wallet you’ll find both my carry permit and my ID card.”
Once this is done;
“Officer, if you will please check law X subsection X you will find that I am within my rights to carry openly. ”
Dude, STFU and let the cop do his job and then file a grievance. Arguing with a cop is a sure way to get tased or shot.
This is the sort of thing that makes me support the open carry crowd.
I think this dude did a good job. One good point was he identified himself as a permit-holder and asked for permission to show the permit. He didn’t insist on trying to show it while the cop was alone. All in all the cop was way out of line on this.
As for him being an idiot for openly carrying in Philly, what is the point of rights we are not allowed to exercise? It is no longer a right when you are prevented from doing it for fear of the police hassling you.
The open carrier is now being charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct and recklessly endangering another person.
Oh really? This should be interesting.
You have a link you can provide?
This is a post by someone who accompanied the OCer when he turned himself into the PPD:
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/126083-arrested-philadelphia-police-open-carry-page-120.html#post1571585
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/133693-thank-you-everyone.html
Apparently police showed up at his place of work yesterday (they missed him, he was out) with a warrant for his arrest. He turned himself in today.
He’s also trying to raise money for the civil suit:
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/132662-fundraiser-holding-philadelphia-responsible.html
Sorry for the multiple comments.
Just like when a bully tells you either give him your lunch money or get punched in the nose. I guess we should all be thankful there are people out there who are happy to get punched in the nose for the rest of us. When you go out looking for trouble, don’t be surprised when you find it.
How, exactly, is complying with the law “looking for trouble?”
Just like painting the tip of your AK pistol orange before taking a stroll in the park.. Complying with the law.
I’m not against what he’s doing – I just think he could have done it better. Listening to the audio, he doesn’t sound like some dude who just happened to be walking down the street. It sounded like he was looking for police or someone else to give him a hard time. I bet the police will make that case if this goes to a civil trial, i.e. he tried to get hassled by the police so he could sue them. Is that what he actually did? Who knows. But the recording didn’t do him as many favors as he thinks.
My, how big of you. You don’t have a problem with what he’s doing, you just want him to do it perfectly. He’s trying to keep an out of control cop from shooting him, and you think he should have done better. How about we have a screaming cop stick a gun in your face and we see how well you handle it?
Not exactly. As I said earlier, he went out looking for trouble – and found it. I get that open carry extremists live for this stuff, and absolutists think fellow gun owners can do no wrong. Leonard Embody is their hero. But in the real world there are no absolutes. “Shall not be infringed” doesn’t even mean that it won’t be infringed. If you go out to antagonize police, and then maybe try not to sound so arrogant when you record the encounter. That’s all I’m saying.
Walking from his mother’s house to the auto parts store isn’t “looking for trouble,” and you know it.
Open Carry in Philadelphia is a high risk activity if you’re looking to avoid law enforcement encounters. I think the behavior of authorities here is reprehensible, but let’s not pretend this individual wasn’t well aware an LEO encounter was exceedingly likely.
But that said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with provoking law enforcement encounters by adhering to the law, and letting them become the violators. This kind of OC activism I support, because I think the law should mean something.
But I do think he came close to being shot. Granted, that’s was all on the cop morally, rather than him. But that’s not to say I think it’s wise to keep pushing the buttons of a cop who’s pointing a gun at you, even if those buttons are completely and totally unreasonable.