SayUncle talks about the pants shitting hysterics the Brady Campaign is using against carry on college campuses. The Brady’s are experts at framing debate. Their rhetoric automatically makes people think of rowdy drunken frat boys shooting guns into the air.
When I was in college, I was too busy studying, and working to pay for it all, to have much time for the whole binge drinking scene. In fact, I probably drink more now than I did in college.  The problem with the Brady rhetoric is that drunken college kids are too busy, well, drinking, to have time and money to spend on a side arm, and all the training that’s required to get a license to carry one.
I didn’t get a carry license until I was in my mid twenties, because in my early twenties I didn’t have the money for it, or the time to become and stay skilled. I think the Brady’s are fooling the public about the kind of person who chooses to get a license to carry a gun. If a 21 or older person in college has the time, money, and dedication to go through what we all did to get a carry license, he’s ot the kind of person I’m worried about having a firearm on campus.
I’ve said the same in other places, that the folks who go through the expense and trouble are more than likely not the type to be irresponsible. Also, the type of person who is irresponsibly drunk all the time will more than likely have one or two misdemeanor alcohol convictions, or maybe even assault (bar fights) that would disqualify them from getting a permit at all.
I would bet that if you surveyed a campus student body for who has a CPL, you’d find the majority of holders to be older students who are returning for another degree or who spent time in the working world or in the military and are getting their first degree (I was 22 when I started college for the first time), not drunken frat boys who sobered up long enough to get one on their 21st birthday.
I’m glad that the Brady Bunch were not around when I was in the Marine Corps! They would have taken all of our weapons !
When I went to school in Philadelphia (Drexel), I wasn’t always going to and from class in the nicest part of time at the best time of the day. Even though I could have gotten the LCTF from my home county, thus avoiding the hassle of getting one from the PPD I didn’t. Why, because even to a college student with an interest in guns who recognized the hazards of living in Philadelphia, purchasing a handgun, ammunition, training, and range time was expensive. It took me moving to relatively safe Bucks County to make that investment. While I feel that I made a mistake by not making the investment then, I think that anybody who goes through the process is probably going to be smart enough about when and when not to carry. I still occasionally go to parties at the houses of college friends, and these parties have copious amounts of alcohol, but if I’m carrying, I do not over indulge.
What year did you graduate? And what college?
I graduated in 2004 from Arts and Sciences (Mathematics).
“Also, the type of person who is irresponsibly drunk all the time will more than likely have one or two misdemeanor alcohol convictions, or maybe even assault (bar fights) that would disqualify them from getting a permit at all.”
I have to disagree with this statement, at least as far as my experience goes. I knew enough people for whom irresponsibly drunk was not a rare condition, but who had had no run-ins with the law. The PPD pretty much seemed only concerned with keeping the parties inside and off the street.
I went to the University of Wisconsin – Madison (Engineering), a well known party school. Campus and local PD took an aggressive stance against underage and irresponsible drinking. I guess it depends on the school.
Still, a person who is likely to be drinking irresponsibly will be more interested in affording the next kegger than the money to get a permit and a firearm. And if one such person did get a permit, how likely are they to lose it for something stupid like carrying in a prohibited place because they could not be bothered to pay attention to the law.
“Still, a person who is likely to be drinking irresponsibly will be more interested in affording the next kegger than the money to get a permit and a firearm. And if one such person did get a permit, how likely are they to lose it for something stupid like carrying in a prohibited place because they could not be bothered to pay attention to the law.”
I completely agree with you person who is drinking irresponsibly will be more interested in booze the obtaining the permit and handgun. I don’t know what places are off limits in Wisconsin, but in PA it is pretty unlikely to lose a permit for carrying in a prohibited (Greg Rotz excluded) as the only places off limits are courthouses and federal facilities/secure areas.
The whole state is off limits in Wisconsin. It’s one of two states that has no licensing system at all. Greg Rotz didn’t lose his license for concealed carry in a prohibited place. The only prohibited place in PA is court facilities, and maybe schools (we’re not sure on that one). Greg lost his license because the Sheriff decided he didn’t like open carry in a polling place (perfectly legal under PA law) and the judge did the right thing and demanded his license be returned to him.
I graduated in 2004 from Arts and Sciences (Mathematics)
I was 1997, College of Engineering. So we probably don’t know each other I would say. I would think you might know Dan, who is President of PAFOA, since you guys were probably there around the same time.
Yep, WI has no concealed carry or open carry permits for non law enforcement, which I find strange for a state where hunting is such a large part of the culture and economy. I know growing up in WI, the fact that there were no shotguns or rifles in my house was the exception, not the norm. I do know there are cases in the courts that are chipping away at the lack of permitting, but the status quo is hard to overcome.
Still, knowing the younger students I went to school with, most of them never even thought about guns or personal safety, it just did not enter into their worldview. These are kids that can barely keep their scooter in good working order, the responsibility of a firearm would just be so much that they would not even bother with it.
Wisconsin is like the Nordic countries. They have a hunting culture, but not a gun culture per se.
Since you only have to be 18 to get a CHL in Indiana, there are probably a fair number of college students with CHLs (and possibly handguns) who would carry, except for university policies. I really wish somebody would challenge those policies in court. From my reading of Indiana state law, they’re prohibited by the preemption clause.
Interesting, I was under the mistaken impression that the rule about being 21 before getting a CHL was a Federal limit in some regard.
Learn something new every day.
I still think it would be educational to learn how many college students have a CHL/CCW/CPL/etc. Take a survey and break it down by state or even school. Make sure to count students who have one, even if it is not valid in that state (i.e. a student from Michigan going to school in WI or IL would still be counted if he had a valid MI permit).
A survey regarding how many students do not feel safe on campus and would like the right to carry would also be educational.
Of course, getting a campus to assist in such a survey would be…difficult.
It’s not a federal limit, and I think a few states allow 18 year olds to get licenses.
Kentucky, which requires you to be 21, honors Indiana CHLs held by 18-20 year olds. How’s that for being a good neighbor?
“Greg Rotz didn’t lose his license for concealed carry in a prohibited place. The only prohibited place in PA is court facilities, and maybe schools (we’re not sure on that one). Greg lost his license because the Sheriff decided he didn’t like open carry in a polling place (perfectly legal under PA law) and the judge did the right thing and demanded his license be returned to him.”
I’m aware that Greg didn’t break any laws or regulations. My point was that even though he won the case, the fact that in PA a sheriff can revoke a permit, even if it was done for a bogus cause that eventually gets reversed in court, effectively means that PA has more locations/situations that are approximately off-limits. At the very least it costs a couple of thousand of dollars to appeal the revocation, and that’s not even guaranteed if the judge who hears your case doesn’t follow the law as the one in Greg’s case did.
“I was 1997, College of Engineering. So we probably don’t know each other I would say. I would think you might know Dan, who is President of PAFOA, since you guys were probably there around the same time.”
I don’t think that I ever ran into Dan, but I wish that I had and had started shooting earlier.