Rustmeister had some fun last week with an Australian blogger who had some issues with America’s gun culture. Gun bloggers descended on his comment section, and, as would be expected, Reasoned Discourse ensued. It looks like Rustmeister is talking again about this latest post by our intrepid Aussie, where he ponders why we hate our country.
I’ve talked to more than a few people from other countries who really have a very difficult time wrapping their heads around the idea of America’s gun culture, and why we think it’s so important to preserve it. I think ones position on the issue depends on who you believe should be responsible for security, the individual or the community. Americans, in general, aren’t entirely thrilled with the idea of being completely reliant on government for their personal security, and are willing to tolerate a higher level of social disorder in order to preserve their right to defend themselves and their families if the community at large fails to protect them.
Other societies place a higher value on community protection than they do on indivudal protection, and are willing to tolerate failures in community protection in order to maintain the primacy of the community in the role of protecting individuals. Even if they will concede that individuals have a right to self-defense, they won’t agree that it extends to being able to arm themselves in order to exercise that right.
Needless to say I’m not willing to risk my own personal security for the sake of someone else’s sense of community, but it’s the reason it’s difficult to have discussions on gun control with people who come from other more community oriented cultures; they don’t start with the same fundamental assumptions that most Americans do. Certainly there are many Americans that share a more community orientation, and who also favor disarming individuals in order to make them reliant on the community for protection, but American culture has always been more distrustful of the idea of surrending more individual automony and responsibility to the community at large, and our gun culture is probably the most prominent example of that. It’s why those of us who fight for the individual right to be armed are as passionate as we are; it’s not just about guns, or maybe not even mostly about guns, it’s about preventing the individual from being sacrified on the altar of community.
Of course, it’s also hard to have a conversation with wankers who resort to insults and personal attacks rather than actually trying to talk and understand each other.
How do you “rely on the community” for protection when you disarm those who you should be relying on?
Maybe they’ll give them all a whistle….
Frankly, it’s my SINCERE hope that these interactions with the Aussies on gun control remain civil. They seem a little dumb-strick that we Americans are so passionate about our fundamental human rights, and probably don’t recognize that the international community has done, and will continue to do much to disarm us.
One such person is Australian Rebecca Peters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Peters
Listen to her debate Wayne LaPierre in “The Great UN Gun Debate”:
Parts 1-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmg_zMuQEDk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WwLz9hBZfM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1YmYuRtI8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKvyYqtJ1w&feature=related
I think the “community protection” thing is perhaps missing the mark. A more accurate description is “overly tall children who want some big strong adult to protect them and provide for them.” They don’t want to be free, they want to be safe and cared for.
Try some compassion: we need to be gentle with those with such mild-mannered sensibilities. Anything else is cruelty. Ninety million well-armed grownups must seem a terrifying threat to someone so utterly governed by timidity.
Oh my god, did you see the graphic he used to represent gun owners? The flying attack monkeys?
Ignore him.
He has gone to full moderation, so nothing he can’t make fun of will get posted.
He’s had his 1 minute of fame.
I am an NRA training counselor and was teaching an NRA Basic Pistol class a couple of weeks ago to a group of 8 students. I noticed the Australian accent of a 22-year old young lady in the class. I always begin by asking students to tell me why they came to take this class since most who take the Basic Pistol class are fairly new to guns.
It turned out this young lady lives in Australia and in the U.S. to see some friends from Australia who have immigrated to the U.S. While she is in the U.S. she said the main thing she wanted to do was take gun classes because it’s not allowed in Australia.
She was using a borrowed XD 40 in the class. After the range session was over she stayed and put about 200 more rounds through it until we finally had to leave because the range was closing for the day. She said it was the most fun she’s had in a while.
So I guess not all the Aussie’s like having their freedom taken away.
Apparently it can’t get any more stupid in Australia. A person from there recently told me that the police carry guns but are not allowed to take them home from the police station. They pick them up at the station, wear them on duty, but must leave them at the station when they go home.
Heard this from on person who said it was first hand knowledge, but if anyone knows different please correct me.
Yeah… I actually took some Aussies shooting once and they had a blast. My friend Jason brought out his machine pistol too.
too late; this particular aussie has already descended into both mudslinging and Reasoned Discourse(tm).
Went to the UK for a few months of work. Everytime I went to a pub they immediately knew a Yank was at the bar ordering a beer (I guess it was my southern accent?) Introductions and discussions soon followed, and it always got down to the cowboy gun culture we enjoy in the US. The discussions abruptly ended when I explained the difference between citizens and subjects!
The best method is generally to try to trap them in their own logic. Most reasonable human being accept that people have the right to defend their own lives. You kind of have to start with that and go from there.
Comment by Nomen Nescio on March 17th, 2008:
“too late; this particular aussie has already descended into both mudslinging and Reasoned Discourse(tm).”
We desperately need to develop international good will, diplomacy, and mutual respect. My fellow Americans, and our friends the Australians – we cannot let this discourse be ruled by extreme or disrespectful rhetoric. But then again, those that wish to undermine someone else’s national sovereignity, and national constitutional protections, must back off substantially. We Americans will say, firmly but hopefully politely – NO – to any attempts to disarm us from afar.
But that said, it is my sincere desire that my fellow Americans will be kind, understanding, and respectful of differing views. I personally don’t support the Austrialian approach to gun control. But what Australia does is up to the people of that nation. Likewise, what we do here is up to us.
I for one will not criticize Australia for it’s decisions regarding gun control. Will I learn from them, and harvest data from them on the efficacy of gun control? Of course! This information has already been informative. But what Australia does is up to the Australians. We all know that to be true. But in return, I expect that Australians will respect the United States’ domestic policy of constitutionally protected, individual rights of the people to keep and bear arms. We will fiercely, yet with mature restraint, defend these rights from all those, both domestic and foreign, who attempt to take them away, or make them meaningless.
G’day, Mates.
As an Australian gun rights activist, I could join an extended rant about our laws, but instead would make two points:
1) Our enemies are your enemies too. For a telling photo of Rebecca Peters, see this article about an unreported cause of the Port Arthur Massacre – (not conspiracy-related) http://www.class.org.au/ideas_kill.htm
2) Most US RKBA activists misunderestimate Australian gun rights issues. In particular, they think our laws took away self-defense rights and crime exploded.
In fact, most indicators for violence were heading down before the laws and continued to do so after at the same rate. Very few Australians relied on guns for self defense before 1996, and a very tiny number of them have suffered since. Even active shooters do not particularly want to make CCW an issue – we just want the community respect we deserve, and laws based on what works instead of what makes self-righteous spoil-sports happy.
MAN that ‘verging on random’ is an annoying blog. Why do you bother talking with someone who is obviously a lefty boofhead and incapable of discussion without all those abusive assumptions of paranoid ideas?
And it loads SO slowly for me. He is pretty low in the rankings, and I had never heard of him before.
But hey, he let MY comment through!
Welcome Chris,
We all have to stick together. This is most decidedly an international struggle, especially with people like Ms. Peters running about trying to get away with any restrictions they can think up.
It’s really reassuring to know there are still people in Australia fighting the fight.