I agree with what Uncle says here:
Aside from my moral objection from congress mandating that I have to purchase goods and services, the US is creating a dependent class along with a vast entitlement program. That, in addition to the fact we can’t afford the two entitlement programs we already have. Yes. I see the pattern. A government creating a dependency on a significant portion of the population. This, folks, is the issue. And they’ve done it before with Social Security and Medicare. They’re creating a group beholden. A group that will vote a certain way or risk losing benefits. Another lobby group rivaling the AARP can spring from this and be a player under the guise of preventing what I talked about earlier from happening. But still complicit in the dependence.
The bill is so long there’s bound to be a lot of crap it in it that are really going to piss off voters. There’s even vending machine requirements that require posting nutrition information. That could be a problem for my club, who has a machine for members. I suspect given federal requirements, we’d just as soon scrap the whole thing. Nice thought, you see, but we don’t want to risk offending the federal requirements. You’d think the vending machine industry would be against such practices, but probably not. It’s regulatory capture. Vending providers will make out because they’ll be the only ones that can afford to deal with the regulations. Vending machine makers will make money on an entirely new class of machines that meet the requirements. How many other nanny state requirements are in this bill? Plenty, I’m sure. The people need to get pissed, and ride these mothers until things change. You can’t depend on the free market to save you. Corporations are now in bed with big government, and it’s all of us who will be the losers.
As for vandalizing private property, it would seem the three percent movement has adopted the tactics of Palestinian school children, and I expect all this to work out just about as well for liberty in this country as it has for the Palestinians. The brick hurlers can wrap themselves in the imagery of the founders all they like, but the founders deplored this kind of mob violence:
Some modern scholars have argued that this interpretation is a myth, and that there’s no evidence that Adams had anything to do with the Stamp Act riots.[58] After the fact, Adams did approve of the August 14 action because he saw no other legal options to resist what he viewed as an unconstitutional act by Parliament, but he condemned attacks on officials’ homes as “mobbish”.[59] According to the modern scholarly interpretation of Adams, he supported legal methods of resisting parliamentary taxation—petitions, boycotts, and nonviolent demonstrations—but he opposed mob violence, which he saw as illegal, dangerous, and counterproductive.[60]
The mob violence was mostly instigated by a gang leader and well known rioter and instigator Ebenezer McIntosh. Fortunately for this country, the movement against the Stamp Act would be taken up by cooler heads. There will always be “herds of fools, tools, and synchophants,” as Sam Adams once said, in any movement. The trick is identifying them and distancing yourself from them. Vandalizing private property is not civil disobedience, or righteous protest. It is, to borrow a term from Sam Adams, “mobbish,” and is not at all within the realm of what the founders would have viewed as legitimate action. If you want to stand with the founders, use the system they created and join us in helping vote these bastards out come November. Then we can see what our options are in terms of getting rid of the monstrosity.
Sebastain,
I mainly agree with you here but, I’ll play devil’s advocate.
The peaceful route has been tried for the last year. People protested and were beaten up(Ken Gladney) & villified by the media for their trouble. We went out and got Scott Brown elected which should have been a clear signal that the people did not want this disaster of a bill, but the politicians have ignored that and pushed this abomination through anyway.
Now they are going to use the so called Nuclear Option that the media said was so terrible when the Republicans toyed with idea. The media has no problem with it now.
So we have a government that is totally controlled by one party. A media that may as well be state run since it basically reprints DNC talking points. And this media-government complex forces a blatantly unconstitutional bill through that they HAVEN’T EVEN READ!
No wonder people are angry.
Throwing bricks at windows is a horrible idea politically, but I can see why they would want to do it.
I can understand the anger. I can understand why Palestinian kids throw rocks too. I can understand a lot of things that are wrong.
There are five boxes to use in the defense of Liberty:
The Soap Box (check),
the Mail Box (check),
the Ballot Box (Nov),
the Jury Box (in process),
and the Ammunition Box (this is a lot closer than I -and I hope most – want it to be).
Please use them in that order.
The bottom line is that the fedgov is just not getting it (or more likely, they get and just don’t give a damn). I’d prefer that some windows are broken and it make the news and expose some of the wide spread seething anger that’s around right now. Maybe, just maybe this ugly thing can be headed off still.
What do you think is going to happen when “comprehensive immigration reform” is passed? Will all the talking, posting, writing, speaking, have made a difference? Because when it passes, there will be no going back. They will have solidified an entire block of 16 to 30 million more voters that have been promised permanent free entitlements.
Sebastian,
“I can understand a lot of things that are wrong.”
My question is: Do you think there could ever be a time when such a thing would be right?
“Do you think there could ever be a time when such a thing would be right?”
Somewhere between now and putting people in cattle cars. But definitely not now.
What Uncle said. The American Revolution was rather unique in history. There’s no guarantee you roll those dice again you get the same result. So you better be damned sure what you’re destroying is bad enough that it’s worth taking a chance on what replaces it.
I’m with Uncle. Right now that kind of crap is just counterproductive.
That said, if the government pushes people hard enough some of them are bound to break.
“That said, if the government pushes people hard enough some of them are bound to break.”
Agreed. So, right now there are 4,5,or 6 people that have been pushed hard enough? And only hard enough to send a message that is being picked up by the media and has not resulted in anyone’s death.
I don’t think it’s counterproductive. I think it’s an appropriate warning. People 7,8,9, and 10 may be a whole lot more violent.
“Somewhere between now and putting people in cattle cars. But definitely not now.”
I would agree. I understand the anger that inspires this, but all this will accomplish is to give the media a tool to paint everyone who disagrees with HCR as a radical extremist.
It’s not really a raw numbers game. If you look at raw numbers, traffic deaths kill far more people that terrorists do, but we worry about terrorists probably more than we worry about traffic deaths. The reason is because terrorism has sociopolitical implications that traffic deaths don’t.
There are going to be window breakers and possibly worse if enough people are angry. Waco made a few guys angry enough to kill 168 people including 19 children. Perhaps that could be seen as a “warning” too. Vandalism obviously isn’t murder, and that’s reflected by the fact that the window breakers would get a slap in the wrist instead of a needle in their arm. But it’s just a matter of degree.
The mob isn’t a pretty thing, which is why I don’t think it’s just a bad idea to incite it, it’s downright irresponsible. What happens when instead of a brick, it’s a molotov cocktail? What happens when it’s a truck full of diesel fuel and fertilizer?
This angers me because it’s a bad thing for the country, and it’ll be a bad thing for liberty of more of it happens, or it escalates. Our founders did not appeal to the mob, and understood its dangers. We shouldn’t either. We definitely shouldn’t do it in their name.
Here is a much better path to follow:
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/96332/
So then at what point does a second revolution become “acceptable ” ? Exactly how far does the Fed have to push before enough is enough ? I dont relish the idea any more then lots of others, but wait long enough and eventually your in so far over your head you couldnt hope to fight your way out.
I also am firmly convinced that something nasty is all but inevitable at this point. Not necessarily over health care or immigration, but merely the fact that we cant afford what we have now, let alone all the new stuff. A Rasmussen Poll out today showed something like 79% of respondents believed a total US Economic collapse was possible. Apparently the Pentagon takes the idea seriously enough that they have been actively war gaming for the possibility of massive civil unrest and societal breakdown and they have decided to “write off ” the major metropolitan cities as undefenseable if the conditions are right.
Like I said , Im far from some wide eyed kid, with fantasies of Rambo running through my head. In fact, the very possibility scares the hell out of me because I have two small children to worry about. That being said , I still think its coming sooner or later. I personally give it some time in the next ten years max before everything comes crashing down.
Remember, the only way to keep Government from being influenced by Business (or Ideologues, etc.) is to keep it from having power.
No power, no lobbying for the use of that power.
It always amuses me (in a sad way) to see “Progressives” complain about the “corruption” of the State by anything-but-people-who-agree-with-them. What did they expect, when they’re pushing for a Total State?
A State with unlimited power is the juiciest target of all for anyone who wants their preferences enshrined as law.
Dan R – I’m with ya. When the signal goes out make sure I get it.
Skullz has the checklist right. The Founders may have deplored mob violence, but when the Brits went after our guns they sure were enthusiastic about organized violence.
We’ve been through economic collapse before without having another revolution. I’m not sure that cassus belli. But at a minimum I think you need to have some break down in the mechanisms of the Republic for there to be a justification. We shouldn’t go to war over interpretations of the commerce power or general welfare clause. More fundamental things maybe. Basically, if the people have the power to alter the government peacefully in free and fair elections in an open society, they should do so.
But there’s really not some kind of decision point where someone stands up and shouts “Revolution!” and it all proceeds orderly down a well defined path. Revolution is something that happens, and I’m not sure when the process starts, it’s ever often justified. The Stamp Act itself wasn’t cassus belli for revolution, but it was a “long train of abuses and usurptations.”
Actually, the Declaration of Independence is probably the only guide out there for righteous revolution, and if you read it with a mind to what was going on at the time, we’re not there yet. Not even close. We’re not dealing here with a far away Parliament and an inherited monarch imposing their will on us without representation or our consent. Obama has not kept troops among us. He has not abolished trial by jury, or whisked dissenters off to a far away place to stand trial.
Whether we like it or not, this is the government the people thought they wanted. That an overwhelming Dem majority in Congress was going to pass a government takeover of health care was a fore drawn conclusion, and Obama and the Democrats were voted in anyway. This is the main reason I worked so hard for a guy like McCain.
Bram:
Read the Declaration of Independence and tell me how many of those things apply today. Let’s just suggest firstly that Obama is still wiling to stand for election in 2012, and we have an elected Congress who represents us. A far cry from an inherited monarchy with a Parliament where we have no representation.
So is the President refusing to sign many laws?
Is he forbidding state government from passing laws?
Is he demanding state legislatures be abolished?
Convening congresses in far away places for the sold purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures? (well, OK, this one is close)
Has dissolved Congress repeatedly?
Cancelled elections?
Limited the right to travel and move?
Implemented laws to frustrate function of the judicial branch?
Made judges dependent on his will by raising and lowering their salaries?
Erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance? (OK, this one they’re definitely guilty of)
Garrisoned our cities and communities with soldiers?
Taken control of the military away from the civil powers?
Cut off our trade with all parts of the world?
Imposed taxes on us without our consent?
Deprived us of trial by jury?
Abolished common law?
OK… this is getting tiring, but you get the point. We’re not there yet. Not even close. We have an obnoxious government who’s pushing things too far. We can vote them out. It will only take a few more months. In the mean time, there’s better things we can be doing to help make the political cost for Obamacare dire that don’t involve throwing rocks into windows.
“In the mean time, there’s better things we can be doing to help make the political cost for Obamacare dire that don’t involve throwing rocks into windows.”
I think there are [i]different[/i] things that people can be doing…
I think that there are folks who are breaking windows is yet another measurement of how close to breaking point a large segment of society may be at. I haven’t seen anyone say that “it’s the only answer”.
In regards to your list, I think there are a number of those things that our government has done and is doing. But like others keep asking (and I know you’re trying not to let it devolve into the “whats the line that cannot be crossed?”) is it 5 of those things? Is it all of those things?
It could be different for everyone, but I also believe that the number of people getting “fed up” and acting out will grow exponentially in number and in effect if something doesn’t change soon.
I’m not yelling “Revolution” (yet), just wondering where that line is.
John Brown was either a total nutter or just a couple years early (or both).
Form the list:
forbidding state government from passing laws: Congress has been pushing around the states for decades with threats to cut their federal funding. I read some of the Healthcare bill, it seemed like every other sentence started with “The states shall…”
Has dissolved Congress repeatedly? I wish
Limited the right to travel and move? Cap and Trade is coming
Made judges dependent on his will by raising and lowering their salaries? Nope – but he has bought Congressmen with judicial appointments for family members and tried to buy off Arlen Specter’s challenger with a fed job.
Garrisoned our cities and communities with soldiers? Nope – Soldiers take an oath to the Constitution. The ATF, FBI, DEA, and IRS have no such loyalty – but they really dig dressing up as soldiers.
Imposed taxes on us without our consent? Well… Debatable and there are more coming.
Great discussion!
Hey I have one for your list:
Is he forbidding State legislatures from passing laws?
Well, we should soon find out, since Idaho and several other States have passed laws prohibiting the unconstitutional requirement of this bill that free citizens must by health insurance. If those State laws are wrongly struck down or ignored, that would qualify for the list, methinks.
Arnie
Dont forget about the brewing fight over the various ” Made in ” State gun laws that have been passed already in a couple States and are on the verge of passing in several others. The ATF has already staked out a position that they will ignore the State Laws.
There has been what, 4 incidents of vandalism around the nation? Two of them in New York state?
What are the chances these incidents are phony? Perhaps done by Democratic Party activists? Remember when some vandalism in Denver was blamed on Republicans when in reality it was some lefty anarchist nutjob who vandalized a Democratic Party facility?
If these vandalizing boobs really are on our side they should have the courage to do it in the light of day, with witnesses present and wait for arrest. That would make a statement. Instead they skulk in the night and let the rest of us take the blame for what they did; which aids the efforts of the Demo/Media regime to discredit opposition.
Sebastian, a hypothetical:
In Iraq and Afghanistan, current ROE dictates that anyone digging a hole by the roadside get’s a bullet in their chest. That is a moral decision, as the behavior, whilst not immediately destructive, is part of the process of killing a soldier or Marine using an IED.
At what point to we decide that our government dug the hole years ago, and we’re now watching two guys carrying a 155mm shell down the street towards it? Do we wait until they’ve planted it? Covered the wires?
When the next convoy is 2 clicks out?
How about when we see the man with the video camera and the cell phone watching the convoy approach?
When do we pull the trigger? We already clearly have the moral authority to do so, and I think the breaking of windows is the warning shot that our enemy does not really deserve, but some people are willing to give them anyways.
We’ve got a five second window to figure it out by this point…
4…
3…
2…
1.
And that’s it. Our republic is more fragile than we wish to think, sometimes; I’m not sure I want to have to tell my posterity that I thought the breaking of windows was not a suitable way to save their birthright.